Huge SEP and OEP Changes for Medicare Agents! Navigating 2025: Nicky Skubal from Aetna

Join us as we dive into the latest developments in the Medicare industry, including major changes to the AEP and SEP regulations. Bob and Rob discuss how these modifications are impacting Medicare agents and their strategies for the coming year. We are joined by Nicky Skubal from Aetna, who brings her expert insight on dual eligible plans (D-SNPs) and Special Enrollment Period (SEP) changes. Learn about the new monthly SEP for dual eligible beneficiaries, the discontinuation of the quarterly SEP, and the introduction of the disaster SEP requiring direct CMS involvement. This episode aims to equip Medicare agents with the knowledge and tools they need for a successful and compliant year ahead. Don't miss it!

Join Insurance 360 and Nicky Skubal from Aetna as they keep you connected with the latest industry trends and ensure you're prepared for a successful year in the ever-evolving insurance landscape!

Transcript

 All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of insurance. It's the first one in 2025, day after the inauguration day. Yeah. Is that yesterday? I didn't see anything on that on the news. Was it an inauguration day? I didn't notice. There's a lot of weird looks from the audience. I'll tell you that. 

Yeah it's always interesting, always fun. A lot going on, a lot going on. We just got through a crazy AEP, which I feel like we shouldn't even say crazy AEP anymore because it's just always crazy. These last four years. I don't even know. I think the word I'd like to use is monotonous.

It's it. That's like basically what AEP was for us this year. Yeah. But we're through it. We're, we got through it. We had a great year. Agents did their thing. They always figure out a way they manage. They do what they have to do. Ton of plan changes, as we all know, plans pulling out, a lot of SARS going on, a lot of a lot of moving parts this year.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's hope that the boat settles a little bit. I'd be okay with a just a regular year. Something tells me. Regular? Yeah. It's probably not gonna happen, but it's okay. We can always hope this is the year. To get on that track right now. We know there are some things that  Medicare agents need to talk about. 

So like always regulation in our industry is the norm, but it's again, this year off the hook, big changes coming.  To this episode. I know we want to have a really good discussion on all the S E P changes that are coming this year, along with some other stuff. Obviously we're in O E P right now, which, which of course, for everybody out there, everybody knows the first rule of OEP, right?

Rob,  it's like fight club. You don't talk about it. You don't talk about OEP in your marketing. That's the first rule. But obviously it's an opportunity. For individuals, they get their new plan information, all of a sudden, they're like, Hey, this prescription drug is not covered or there's a, one of their doctors happens to not be in it and they realize it.

So there are some things that can be done during OEP. Agents can still do their normal marketing, right? They can still do business agents and a lot of those things. So there is that going on. But we said we've got a little bit left in OEP and then of course We got to talk about what's going on with SCP, right? 

Which by the way, look, I've been doing this. He's been doing a lot longer than me. I'll be at 10 years, by the way, this year. 10 years. Yeah. I'm hitting that, that century mark, but this might be the most confusing updates within the snip market. Yeah. That I've ever seen. It's already confusing as it is.

They've, the last couple of years, they've changed anyway. It's okay, we're going to do monthly, oh, no, wait, it's quarterly, and then AEP will be your fourth quarter one. So they've gone a comp Back and forth with the SCP stuff a couple of times, but we figured the best thing to do is to actually bring on an expert on the episode so that, we didn't screw up, right?

We, yeah, we didn't misspeak. So we actually have with us today, one of our longstanding friends. So for those of you that have been in the Medicare industry, you probably know Nicky Skubal. So Nicky is over at Aetna right now. She is the strategic leader over at Aetna for DSNIP and SEP.

She knows everything about this, right? I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write that up.  Hopefully I don't have any gotcha questions set up for her today. But Nicky, we are so happy for you to join us today. Taking a couple of minutes try and give some clarity to the confusion that is the SEP changes this year.

Thanks gentlemen. Yeah, it's great to be here. Nice to see you as always love working with our pinnacle. Partners and yeah, it is confusing from the outset because it is a change and like you said dual special needs plans for that dual eligible community. It can be complicated if you're not familiar with it But I also want brokers everyone to take a step  It's not as bad, I think, as everyone thinks it is because the rules are fairly clear cut, and again, like you said, Bob we've been able to use that quarterly SEP.

I think it was 2019. Don't quote me on that. You called me an expert here, but  years that quarterly SEP has been around and it was a safety net. So if somebody made the wrong choice or like you said, if maybe the same reason someone might want to use OEP, their provider was no longer in network, they found some benefits that might have better fit for their health outcomes.

They could make that change and that's going away. And so I think the first and most important thing we need to clarify is that for all dual eligible consumers, And anyone who qualifies for low income subsidy, that's LIS or extra help. They don't have to be dual, anyone who qualifies for LIS, anyone who qualifies for DSTEP, there is no longer a quarterly SEP in 2025.

It's gone.  That's a big, that's a big deal. If nothing else gets discussed today, the agents need to understand that point. That's critical because that's just a huge change in itself.  Massive change because everyone's come to rely on it. And we know that a lot of agents have mixed books of business who sell every line of business.

When we talk about MAPD, even MedSup and PDP and DSNIP, they would do a lot of their DSNIP business.  AEP was closed. They focused on the people that were restricted to sales, and then they'd move on for the remainder of the year. So it does require a different type of business strategy, so what is available?

Let's talk this through. So again, we know OEP is here. It's the same rules for everyone. And again, the Fight Club rules is that you can't talk about OEP during OEP. So that changes the marketing. So what can we do, right? How does this work? So there is an integrated care SEP. So I know that sounds complicated, but it's an SEP for those who are full benefit dual eligible.

So when we talk about full benefit, dual eligible, this is where we get into the acronym alphabet of Medicare. We talk about those who are Quimby plus. Slim B plus, so that's QM B plus, SLMB Plus and FBD Full BE Benefit, dual eligible. So those are our full duals. They now have a once per month election to go into a fully integrated, dual eligible.

You're gonna hear the acronym fighty. Or a Highly integrated, dual eligible. That's a Heidi.  A fighty or a Heidi, those are different types of decent plans that states offer, right? So not every state has a Heidi or a fighty available. So that's the other important thing. And carriers. And then it's going to depend on which carriers have won those awards.

it's going to depend on which states have contracts in their states. So again it's going to vary by state, what plan is available based on the state's contracting, and then it's going to depend on which carriers have won those awards. So a Heidi or a fighty, if someone is full dual, it's going to  They can once per month, not that I'm not suggesting they should do this once per month, but they have an opportunity if they find themselves in a plan, that's no longer the best fit for their health needs.

They can move. So that's out there, but it's important for agents to remember that a Heidi or a fighty is a very. Specific type of decent plan and it doesn't just mean the person has the same medicare and medicaid carrier So I think that's some confusion i've seen out there. From brokers. I've heard that in person and it's not that's not the case.

Does that make sense guys? Am I taking you down the right path? Yeah No, I think you know, these are the nuances we want to really get some clarity on because you're right what we've heard is With the integration is that. you're looking at which carriers have the contracts, the Medicaid contracts in the states.

And our understanding is maybe only half the states even have the opportunity to even offer this. So half the country, you really This doesn't even count for right. This is this doesn't even come into play with these changes, which is  really amazing. I don't want to say CMS maybe didn't realize this or something, or they just Hey, we're going to do this.

I know Rob usually. Have something to say about CMS. So I here's the thing, right? I feel half the time they're coming up with these rules. They just have a big dart board of, random things and someone's just throwing a dart. They hit it and they go, all right this is the rules for this year.

Let's throw it in final rule. You know what? It's not going to make it this year. Let's throw it in next year's final. And what's your famous quote about the government. Government. Yeah. When I make a joke, it's a joke. When the government makes a joke, it's the law. It's almost hard to believe that they would have went into saying we're gonna cut half the people of the country out of this opportunity, right?

It's one of those things where, maybe it's a misstep. Maybe, we'll talk a little bit about our good friend coming in Dr Oz. Maybe Dr Oz will put his our savior. Mr. Dr. Oz. We don't know yet exactly  on a little bit of this. And, this actually has been set in motion for quite a few years.

It wasn't just new to the 2025 final rule and it goes back Prior to  this current administration, the goal for CMS has been to move dual population toward integration for quite some time. So again, the states are catching up, but I'll give you guys a little background on that. And that when we talk about a fully integrated dual eligible plan and you all know, and your brokers who work with the dual population, no, these are our most vulnerable members, right?

They're people who. They live in poverty. They usually have three or more chronic conditions on average. They don't necessarily have the best grasp of health literacy. Medicare's complicated for those of us who do it every day, let alone people who might be struggling with other factors who don't have an education in health insurance, for example.

And don't, we talk about This complications of CMS regulations, right? So what they have found with the fighty plans is that  consumers who are enrolled, the beneficiaries who are in a fighty, they have better health outcomes and they've also found, and this is probably the kicker, they're easier for the state to administer.

So the state Medicaid plan, they're easier for CMS to administer. They're easier for the carriers to administer, but they also cost less. They cost. Everyone less money. So again, government at a state and federal level the health plans, and they're giving the members a better outcome. So that's the goal.

There is a good intention behind it. It is to help these most vulnerable beneficiaries get the healthcare they need. But to your point, it's maybe it's not being rolled out consistently because every state decides when they will. Create these plans in their markets, but the intention has been, and of course it's always subject to change, that every decent plan would be integrated by 2030.

So that's the eventual goal, as long as we stay on this path. And of course, my crystal ball is broken. Yeah, I think we all feel that way sometimes. So what we're looking at. Let's just maybe we'll come around and what we're looking at is half the country right now.

We know as we're rolling this out, there is some opportunities still. The other half is really, AEP is going to be a big opportunity to change, possibly OEP, depending on the circumstances.  And then also I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but we know there, there are possibly some, not possibly, there are some stated changes coming to the disaster SEPs, which, it feels like there's a disaster every other day anymore, but and we see a lot of them, but starting April 1st, Rob, check me on that.

April 1st. All the disaster SEPs are going to be required to go through CMS directly. They're not going to be agent assistant enrollments. Probably still more to come on that. I, I know. We have that conversation. The first thing I always get asked by an agent here this year already has been questions like agent record and those kind of things.

I don't know that's all been quite flushed out. So we can't really speak, to that. We certainly feel like there should be a system set up, but, that's probably not done yet. I haven't heard anything on it. So we'll just say more to come on that. But we know April 1st, the disaster SEPs, the change there is also going to make a big deal.

So  a lot of SEP stuff going on right now. And it's a big market. Nikki, you've been doing this a long time with us in the SNP marketplace. Our, SNP business has been steadily increasing year over year. And I know you've probably seen the same thing. So what do you think? What are the, what do we think is going to happen for this year?

Is it what's with the marketing? I'm an agent, this was my marketing. What happens now? Yeah, so I think there's a couple of other things I want to touch on too, so I want to make sure that all the brokers out there understand. So we know that the monthly integrated SEP, that's for full duals who live in a service area where there's either a Heidi or a FIDI.

And we can clarify those acronyms if you'd like Bob that's one SEP that is available. So there are several markets where that is an option. And if that's the right move, Agents are going to do the right thing. We know they do their due diligence and they're going to put the consumer in the plan.

That's the best fit for their health. But there also, it's important to remember, and I think this is important to think about not only from, really from a retention standpoint is that there is a dual. Slash LIS SEP available for those who are full dual, whether they live in a fighty or a Heidi market or what we call coordination only decent market or a partial dual, or somebody who has LIS and extra help they can on a monthly basis, should they want to, they can leave.

And this is up till December 1st, they can leave their D SNP or their MAPD plan and go back to original Medicare and they can pick up a PDP. And the point that's really needs to make sure that agents understand there, and especially we talk about that retention is that if they choose to do that, unless they have another qualifying life event that generates an SEP for them.

They're going to be there till AEP because we no longer have that quarterly SEP. So that's one of the things that's really important for brokers to understand that, we know there's always.  confusion out there. Again, we talk about this. These are groups of people who don't necessarily understand all the options.

They don't have maybe the best health literacy. And because they're used to being able to make changes, if somebody says to them, Oh, I could get you on a drug plan and, and maybe talk them into something that might not be in their best interest, they're going to be stuck there. So we don't want that to happen.

So brokers have to think about that. It's, Not just about what opportunities are not available necessarily on that quarterly basis, but making sure they're educating their members that, hey, somebody talks to you about making a plan change. I want you to call me first because those changes are different now.

So again, it's, that's that retention play that we don't want to lose sight of. That's really important. And again, people, most people, I know the Pinnacle brokers do a great job of making sure their members understand there were your first call, but it's still really important to make sure that they're reiterating that these changes are out there. 

Yeah, no. And I've already seen, even from you guys over at Aetna, some of the marketing materials that have been coming out. I know here at Pinnacle, we're going to have some pretty extensive cheat sheets available. The agents are really going to, as your point, you mentioned many times, they're going to have to do their due diligence, right?

They're going to have to see what are they qualified for? And then it's one of those things like, do they qualify for Heidi? And it's going to be a little arrow and you can go here. If it's Heidi, it goes here. What state are you in? And it's going to be this roadmap that we're going to, we're going to lay out for them because it is going to be pretty complicated, especially for those.

agents that are in multiple states, because obviously it could be very different depending on the state that you're in and what's available in those states. I know you guys have already started rolling out some marketing stuff on there. I imagine as we get closer we'll probably do a lot more of this.

If they're a OEP as well so are you anticipating having a lot more training from the company level as well? I would imagine it's going to probably need to be a, an ongoing item an important education piece to, to you at Aetna.  Absolutely.  And I think as you guys know, cause we've, we all start talking about AEP what around June.

We're getting ready to start talking about 2026 AEP right now, which is always hard to believe. I never quite know what year it is because we're always a year. I'm going ahead.  So we're in 2025, but yeah, that's a great point. We do have resources that we've made here at Aetna and the broker managers and the teams out in the field have them.

You all have them. I know I've been lucky to partner with Serena and do some work with, for your agents. And I know we've got more of that coming in the future. And so the resources that we have will be great compliments to what you all create. And make sure that agents have everything that they need to be able to have that quick reference because like you said, if they're working in multiple states and there are different rules, different types of place, just like it is now, they.

Take that quick minute to double check. But I also think, again, when we talk about retention, it is a big change. It's a different way of doing business. It does require slowing down and reexamining for agents. How am I going to build my book this year? Because that's always important.

They want to retain, they want to grow. And we get that, and this.  might feel like they're losing something I can understand that because it was simply easier before. If you met somebody who qualified, you had that quarterly SCP open to you. But now I want agents to think, okay, let's refract.

For those who are working in coordination states only. This is a great opportunity for them to focus on the fact that it's a retention opportunity. They don't have to worry about constantly checking in with those consumers who did have that quarterly available to them. They can breathe a little bit more easily and think about other strategies of how they're going to build their book.

So there's, there are some pros to it. If we allow ourselves to see that silver lining, not to Pollyanna. These industry changes have not been easy, but we have to focus on what we can control. And I think, you asked about different ways that mark of marketing, and I want to, mention that Aetna partners with the National Council on Aging, the National Council on Aging, and we have a program called Benefits Checkup.

And this is a program that that agents can get to pretty easily. They can either get to it through think agent, which is our online tool. That's an app that, you know, for enrollment and a lot more checking eligibility, but they could also go to Aetna Medicare dot benefits, checkup. org. And in there they can see if there are different things that a consumer, a beneficiary may be eligible for.

So this is great to check to see if somebody. is eligible for LIS. There are potentially 2 million people out there who qualify for low income subsidy and don't know it. So if they become eligible for LIS, that creates an SEP, right? That's an opportunity to enroll someone into a different MAPD plan or, Aetna has some plans across the country, our value plus plans that are designed for people who qualify for low income subsidy.

But it also could be the chance to see maybe They haven't recently checked their Medicaid paperwork. Maybe they have had a life change and they are making less money or maybe more money. And if they have a change in their Medicaid status, that's an SEP. And, there are other different things that brokers can work with their consumers on to see if there are opportunities to, to find those changes.

It's a little bit tougher. Because you have to do a little bit more digging, but you know that now we have this, not only do we have that program, but we have marketing materials on the Aetna marketing portal. We call it AMP and brokers can go on and they can customize and make flyers and mailers and talk about, Hey, I'm going to be doing a benefits checkup.

They can work with their local broker manager and their team and get set up at a community organization or, wherever it might be the best fit for them. And they can actually conduct these benefits checkups as a service. It's also a great way to keep retaining your members, maybe.

It doesn't open up an SEP for them now, but what if it helps them find another community benefit that they didn't know they were eligible for? That reinforces that this is the person I go to when I need help. This is the person who's going to give me the service I need, the expert for everything to do with my health care and my financial health, depending on how deep they go with their different services they offer.

But it reinforces that trust. And so I think that there's just different ways of looking at it. And. I think a lot of brokers are open to that, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We love the benefit checkup program. It's really easy to use and it gives you just a ton of information on there.

Just so many programs that can be taken advantage of by clients. It's just such a valuable resource for agents. And you know what? It used to be 10, 000 a day. I think the rule is now 11, 000 a day or are aging into Medicare. So we still got a booming marketplace. The opportunity for agents is still outstanding.

The the agent channel is still. Alive and I mean we've seen the call centers out there for all the people that are signing up using call centers you know the value add that agents bring when they're meeting with them in person I think it's just huge and this is just another sort of arrow in the quiver that agents can add and it's no cost to it for them.

It's just a resource for them. And we've talked about, the seminar programs that we do and some of the other stuff, which marketing wise has just worked really well. So I think to your point, I think it's just, maybe we've got to change up how we do business a little bit, like we do every year.

Just to meet what the marketplace is presenting to us. And I think we'll do that again.  Yeah. Look let's be honest, right? Everyone in this room, if you're doing D SNP and C SNP, it's, it is traditionally more difficult than your regular MA, right? I think the people that are doing this, the agents that are in this marketplace that yeah it's a it's an issue, but I think that out of anyone that's making sales, they should be able to handle this a lot easier than just your standard MA person, right?

The people that don't want anything to do with. The Dsnp and Csip market. So yeah it's a hurdle, but I think the, these agents have just become accustomed to hurdling every year. Yeah, no, I agree. So for us, I think it's just give 'em the tools and the education that they need and let them continue to do what they do best.

Yeah. Yeah. And don't, you mentioned 2026 already, the 2026 final rule came out and listen, we talked about the final rule last year until I don't think most agents knew about the final rule until the last couple of years. It was never this  big of an issue, but the 2026 final rule is pretty daunting and we're still hopeful that it Won't quite go through the way it is, especially on the marketing end of things.

Listen  that's great that anything that says medicare in any way shape or form needs to be filed, but I don't know where cms is doing the hiring because They have any idea the load the lift that would take that They probably need to hire another 20 000 people before that's That starts happening.

So I don't, it's almost like a death blow to the marketing of this. If that was the really happened. But we'll see. Again, Dr. Oz could come in and change that. And, when a new administration comes in, they always put their. There's their stamp on something. So we're thinking that could change, but we don't know that yet.

So we'll have to address that when it comes right. That's a little bit speculative on our part to say that's going to change. We're hoping it's a, he's more of a friend than a foe at this point, but you never know until you see. The next final rule, I know our compliance area here, Nikki, we file stuff with CMS all the time.

The agents send their stuff. It's, is this considered marketing or communication, right? What's the rule? Let's talk about premium. Let's talk about giving benefit any benefits on the plan that dental vision hearing does it let's talk about part B give backs on there. We know any of that kind of stuff's on there.

It's gotta be filed, right? So if it's just, hey, come to a educational event or something that sort of was that communication part of it. So we hope that that doesn't go sideways on us this next year, look and, we do logos and websites. And one of the number one things that I always hear is, oh my name's, Medicare, Mike of Pennsylvania or something.

And I got to tell them, look, Medicare, Mike, you're going to need to change your name. You're no longer Medicare. I attest that because I tell them, I'm like, look we're a big company. We had to change our marketing, something we had trademarked for what? 10 years. Yeah. Connect for Medicare. We had to change our branding.

It just. It's what you had to do. Yeah. And a lot of these larger organizations had to spend a ton of money to do this. So I try to tell people, especially agents that are just starting out or just getting an online presence. Yeah. It sucks. You can't use Medicare, but it could suck really worse if you used Medicare and then CMS comes down, cracking down on you.

We don't like gray areas here at Pinnacle, right? It's black and white. You just  listen to the rules and we don't want anybody to get in trouble, Nikki. We like everybody to be in good standing with our friends over at CMS and I think you guys actually. You do a really great job of that.

You have a phenomenal compliance team. You're really good. You're making sure your agents know. And I think especially agents who've been in this for a couple of years, sales, regardless sales and consulting consumers, we have to be nimble. There's always going to be change whether or not it's coming from CMS, whether it's coming from society, things.

Always going to change. Healthcare is a complex business from the top down and the bottom up. So we all have to be ready to adapt and adjust. And I think if we can keep that mindset and remember that ultimately, which I think, everyone has their why everyone has a different reason that they do what they do every day.

My why is these members. I think a lot of people have that there, none of us are volunteers, but we all do this with the hope that we're helping other people get what they need. And. As a result, a lot of people have been able to  A career around it one way or the other. So I think as long as we're focused on the fact that whatever these changes are, as long as we're taking care of our members, and I think that's what everyone really does try to do we're going to be okay.

It's not going to be easy, but nothing, isn't there some cliches out there that nothing that's good in life or that's worth it? Easy, right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. No you're right. You're right. We're we like to say, if you're helping somebody That's what we do, right? It's not about selling.

That's just the way it is. The more people you help, the better off your business would be, the better off the consumers will be, the beneficiaries out there. Everybody's happy. Nobody wants complaints. Nobody does.  Believe me that's the furthest thing from anybody's mind.

Everybody wants to do the right thing and to help people and they're sitting across from them, asking them what's important to them, their prescriptions, their doctors, and going through all those motions to make sure that they put them in the right plan that makes sense for them. I'm sure it'll be more to come on everything we're talking about today, no doubt about it.

Wouldn't shock me. Yeah. You, and we tell everybody, if you're not following Pinnacle on. YouTube and social media. You need to do that because we're putting stuff out all the time. We're putting out articles on these changes, best practices on how to manage all the things that are coming down the pike.

So make sure you're following us. Follow the podcast. We'll keep these coming. We fight the good fight here. It's right. We're fighting the good fight. We want the information to get out there. And there's so much, it seems like a fire hose right now of information sometimes, but that's just the way it is.

That's our business, right? Yeah. I, you know what though? It's the one thing I think for me personally, cause I'm a tech guy. I always love technology. So one thing that I, fascinates me about the business is the fact that everything's always changing, right? You always have to be prepared. It's the same thing in the technology world.

You get used to one thing before you know it, Apple's got a, what? iPhone 27 and you can have the 27, who knows Android people, Nikki. It's a little It's it's always a fight here in the office and as well, but three people that have androids, but yeah. Yeah. The IT people in the office have androids.

That's saying something, right? Saying something. I don't know. So I think that's the point there too. It shows we can all be in harmony.  I appreciate that. Any final thoughts, words of wisdom, any kind of good things that we can leave this with today as we go into the remaining OEP and into the rest of these rules. 

Yeah, so when in doubt, call Pinnacle. Or your Aetna broker manager, right? If you're not sure,  right? And and it just a reminder that quarterly SEP has gone it's unfortunate, but we're going to say goodbye to it. It's over. And your DSNP beneficiaries who are full duals, if they live in a state where a Heidi or a FIDI is available to them in their service area, they have that monthly SEP available to them.

But I also want to go back to, again, we talked about doing the right thing. Just because you can move somebody monthly doesn't necessarily mean. You should move them monthly. And what I mean That is, there's going to be times, we go back to, yeah, their doctor's not in network and that's the specialist they absolutely have to see.

And that's a time that they probably should be moved. But members also need a chance to get used to their health plan. They need to, at Aetna, every single decent member, regardless of their health, has a full team of care managers to take care of them and help them find the best health outcomes for them.

It's important that they get the chance to interact with those folks and they get the chance to build a care plan.  It's true of other carriers as well. So you want to give people that opportunity. So again, just because you can move up every month doesn't mean that's necessarily the best thing for them.

But I think your agents know that, but also reinforcing the fact that most other SEPs aren't changing. So there's still opportunities for brokers who are out there. They need to support their prospects and their members. They're going to just have to maybe look for things in a little bit of a different manner and not rely on that quarterly SEP.

And again, I'll go back to it again. The best advice is contact Pinnacle. Contact your Aetna broker manager with your questions and talk through business planning and adapting and shifting with these changes because you're there to support them, we're there to support them, and we just want them to have the most successful, compliant year possible. 

Love it. Absolutely. Great way to end it. Nikki couldn't be happier to join us today. A lot of great information. I certainly feel it's brought a lot of clarity. Yeah. In, I feel better in a world that we know is always changing and a little bit complicated. But it's all good.

So thank you again for joining us and we look forward to more to come. So  cheers it out. Great. Rest of your day. Appreciate it. Thank you, Nikki.  Thank you. Thanks guys.